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Defending Feminism's avatar

Great piece! I'm a huge fan of tropical fish, and outside of feminist theorizing I spend a good chunk of time reading about fish pain and fish consciousness. I really liked this series by Brian Key and thought he made some really challenging arguments against the idea that fish lives are mostly hellish experiences. He makes a good case for the idea that fish and invertebrates may not experience pain like we do at all. I'm not sure if you'll agree with his conclusions, but the discourse was fascinating! https://www.wellbeingintlstudiesrepository.org/animsent/vol1/iss3/1/

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Kryptogal (Kate, if you like)'s avatar

So, I'm one of those people whose deepest desire is to be able to live in some kind of Gaia paradise of trees and plants and animals, yet who is also prone to terribly dark thoughts about how awful and brutal and disgusting nature is. I both love and hate nature documentaries, but can only tolerate the ones that are Disney-fied enough to not show the true horror of a baby animal being disemboweled alive, while the more raw ones will put me in a place where I DO wish the whole planet would get incinerated by the sun, just to stop the perpetual slaughter-house.

I think it's just not that simple. There is a lot of variability in how good or bad it is appears to be, for various creatures.

Being a carefree Westie Terrier is obviously a very enjoyable and good thing, from all appearances. In general just being a DOG seems to be excellent. Better than being a human. Every day is Christmas and every car ride is a thrilling adventure, for dogs, at least based on their behavior. Being an apex predator in general seems pretty damn great. Being a tree seems good, because as far as I can tell, they don't have pain receptors. If trees can somehow experience a form of pain, then being a tree doesn't seem so great. Being a rabbit or mouse or any other creature that has to create 60 babies per generation because 59 of them get eaten within a year, and who lives in what appears to be constant never-ending anxiety of being swooped down upon by a hawk or fox, does not seem like a net positive.

Unfortunately, for the apex predators to enjoy themselves, the prey animals have to suffer. If I was in charge, every creature would run on photosynethesis like a plant, yet we would still have bears and wolves and humans and cats and raccoons, which makes no sense at all, of course.

I have no way to calculate the net suffering/pleasure of every living thing on earth, or even every animal, or even just one specific type of animal. You would have a hard time convincing me that life for a rabbit is a net plus. They don't appear to ever be happy, or ever not anxious. But rabbits certainly do make the coyotes happy.

I don't see any contradiction in the fact that people with this sort of overly-sympathetic view, which ends up resulting in an overall very dark philosophy, don't think it means that everything should die or kill itself. Because it's perfectly obvious that once born, a living creature does not want to die. That doesn't need to be rational, it just is. They don't want to die, so making them die would cause them to suffer. And since that's what you're trying to avoid in the first place, killing them all isn't a great technique.

So if you want to decrease net suffering, you don't want to kill what is already here, but simply not create more suffering creatures in the first place. That's a perfectly rational response, and is in fact precisely how we treat our most beloved animal companions. The first thing a cat or dog lover wants to do is set up a system of neutering them, so that more new ones aren't born, in order to improve the lives of the ones that ARE born, and make sure there's no unnecessary suffering. I think this is generally the ideal strategy of anyone who loves a species...to prevent too many from existing, to improve the lives of those that do. Quality over quantity.

But what can you do for those creatures who seem to just have lives that are always terrible, no matter what? Well, nothing, if you don't want to harm others. Naturally, I'm biased towards mammals, because I am one. I care more for a fox than I do for a mosquito. It makes sense that our favorite companions, dogs and cats, are also apex-predator mammals. A ruminant prey animal will likely never be our best friend. So I suppose I can live with all the mice and rabbits with terrible lives because it helps the cats and foxes I'm biased towards. it's not ideal, but what can you do?

I think we can agree that there are situations in which life is so terrible, with so much suffering, that the morally correct thing to do is to end it. If a wildfire burns an entire farm of animals, just badly enough for them to be in severe pain but not to kill them, it is right to shoot them all in the head and put them out of their misery.

That's an easy question. The harder ones are every day life. I can't judge it, except in the micro. It is a difficult question. We have no idea what it's like to be a fish. Mammals are easier to judge. And we can't do much about any of it, on a macro level, without knock-on effects. All I can do is try try my best so that the limited creatures around me, on whose lives I can have an impact, have the most enjoyable time of it.

But there is no way in hell that you will convince me that it's not better to be a malamute or a Westie than it is to be the bunny that they would so joyfully tear to shreds.

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